Patiently Waiting...

I bought a PayPal module from the ecommerce section on the 25th Feb.

A few weeks later I get an email from PayPal stating they don't like my site, here's the bulk of their email received on 2014-03-07 15:03:

We are hereby notifying you that, after a recent review of your account

activity, it has been determined that you are in violation of PayPal’s

Acceptable Use Policy regarding your sales / offers on

http://www.(MySite).com.

Please refer to:

- Transaction 1JE58391KW839220M

Therefore, your account has been permanently limited.

Per the User Agreement, when PayPal permanently limits an account due to an

Acceptable Use Policy violation, we may hold your funds up to 180 days. We

will review your account at 30 days from the date of this email, we will

calculate our exposure and will release any excess funds to you for

withdrawal. If there are any funds remaining in your account at this time,

we will review your account every 30 days until either all your funds have

been made available to you for withdrawal, or a period of 180 days from the

date your account was limited is reached. Please log in to your PayPal

account and verify that your account information is accurate, as PayPal

cannot be held responsible for incorrect information provided by the

account holder.

You will need to remove all references to PayPal from your website/s and/or

auction/s. This includes not only removing PayPal as a payment option, but

also the PayPal logo and/or shopping cart.

The PayPal User Agreement states that PayPal, at its sole discretion,

reserves the right to limit an account for any violation of the User

Agreement, including the Acceptable Use Policy.

Under the Acceptable Use Policy, PayPal may not be used to send or receive

payments for certain sexually oriented materials or services or for items

that could be considered obscene.

The complete Acceptable Use Policy can be found at the following URL:

https://cms.paypal.com/uk/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/AcceptableUse_full&locale.x=en_GB

To learn more about the Acceptable Use Policy, please refer to our Help

Centre page here:

https://www.paypal.com/uk/cgi-bin/helpweb?cmd=_help

We thank you in advance for your cooperation. If you have any questions,

please contact the PayPal Brand Risk Management Department at

euaup@paypal.co.uk.

Sincerely,

Anna

PayPal, Brand Risk Management

--------------------------------------------------

Copyright © 1999-2014 PayPal. All rights reserved.

PayPal (Europe) S.à r.l. & Cie, S.C.A.

Société en Commandite par Actions

Registered Office: 22-24 Boulevard Royal, 5ème étage, L-2449 Luxembourg

RCS Luxembourg B 118 349

Responses to this email address are not monitored. Please send any

additional questions that you may have to euaup@paypal.co.uk.

---

Unfortunately, when I emailed the maker of the module that I wasn't allowed to use his module, I received no response.  Like as if I'm making this up.

Now, PayPal's initial line of dispute advice is to email the module maker using the email supplied.

After emailing on here with no joy, I used the email linked to the transaction of the PayPal module.  Again with no joy.

I cannot see a report button anymore, so what can I do in this instance?

This is pretty much an open & shut case.  I buy a module without realising I can't use it, you'd think I could receive a refund.

I am not sure it has anything to do with the module. They didn't likes your site or the transaction (later on is weird tho).

"We will review your account at 30 days from the date of this email, we will

calculate our exposure and will release any excess funds to you for

withdrawal."

I think I would call them and ask them to explain this, sounds like they are saying they will be stealing part of your money. The problem with PayPal is that they are not a bank but acting like a bank. There was a lawsuit against them once before but I am thinking a few more are in order.

Refunds have been covered here before. Specifically, what would be constituting reasons for a refund. Unfortunately, I do not think user not realising they can not use it is covered. Unless, the module has been said to do something, and it does not do such - thus you can not use it, so you may be able to get a refund.

It is extremely important to really look at what the module does and your needs before purchasing modules. I tend to send the developer a bunch of questions before purchase. I will say, not one of the developers that I have contacted pre-purchase have not answered my questions.

Now, not knowing what module you are referring to, does make it a little challenging. Sometimes putting them on blast can get you a response - especially since you have attempted contacting them several different ways already.

Another thing you have to consider, is there possibly some change that was made to your site that is causing the issue with the module. I notice that some modules are dependent on other modules, and some may not work if you have changed a core module. Example - The membership voucher does not work if using a 3rd party membership payment module.

So, without knowing the module, and not knowing exactly what it is that PayPal does not like about your site, it is going to make it difficult to help you.

There are millions on lawsuit and complains on them, just google it.

They are the web's biggest thieves and no one can do much about that. People use them because of their scale and not much choices. They will never froze your account when its empty for obvious reasons.

It's really not the fault of the developer.

There is no way for the developer to know you have a site that paypal would deem unacceptable.

Software is treated differently than goods. Software that is downloaded normally follows the same policy regarding boxed software that has been opened. Which in most cases cannot be returned.

 
LOL.  One of the reasons why i transfer funds on a regular basis. I keep my paypal account as empty as possible.

PayPal will not let you use paypal payments on an adult site.  They also restrict what you can purchase; even if your purchase is legal.

This is the first time I was aware of this ruling by them.

Perhaps there should be some sort of page about things to be aware of??

It's not the fault of the developer, but it's also not the fault of the purchaser.

I would think it would be the decent thing to do.  Don't you think?

*LOL*

if not researching enough doesn't count as a fault than yes. I would say, sh!t happens, move on and find some alternative payment processor for your site.

EDIT: Its pretty known paypal doesn't allow adult sites. All it takes is this

 Not to sound rude or anything, but it would not really be the decent thing to do. It would be nice if the developer considered your plight and did refund you. If it were me, I would call PayPal and get specifics about what it is that is going on. After correcting these issues, you may find that you can use the module.

I thought it was common knowledge that PayPal has restrictions for porn-related and gambling sites (I used to build gambling sites).  I'll assume it's your first venture into developing a site catering to those addictions... and you've just experienced one of the major headaches.  In my opinion, unless the module can ONLY be used on porn-related sites, it's not the module developer's moral responsibility to inform you of PayPal limitations.

Add on... I agree with GG's next comment... the developer should not ignore your request to discuss the issue... assuming you didn't rudely demand a refund ;-)

Developers should respond to emails; even if you say No.

Without knowing the module in ref, it's hard to say if they should refund you or not.

If the module is advertised as offering a service that enables adult content to be paid for by paypal, then that would be a module that shouldn't be sold.

If the module allows selling / broadcasting of adult content, but not specifically via paypal then the inclusion of paypal is on your end and the dev is not to blame.

If they offer a module that allows selling of content by paypal, but does not specify to include adult content, then they are not to blame.

The issue is paypal + adult = no go.

If you are the one to cross the 2 together, then its your work and not the dev. 

Like I said though, without knowing the module, or the content no body can really say whats right or wrong!

Advice for anyone using paypal though, as Deano said - withdraw cash from your PP account continuously, don't allow it to mount up. There are literally thousands of people who have lost money to PP... myself included in the past. If they decide to freeze your account they can come up with endless demands for you to prove whatever, and will make it impossible for you to do so! 

Its a dam shame they are viewed by most as the goto online payment facility of choice... 

 RE:

Oh GMAFB.   Don't blame the module developer for your own ignorance.  Without even knowing which module it was, obviously the module worked just fine or you wouldn't have received that notice from Paypal.  Paypal terms of service and restrictions are clearly defined, and YOU agreed to  them when you created your account.  Take your medicine like a man, and don't whine to the module developer, just because you didn't read that Paypal TOS.

I've purchased a lot of modules that didn't work out for me... some because of my own stupidity.  Never once have I whined to the developer about any of them.  It would be like buying a new car, then asking for my money back because the Mexican border agents wouldn't let me in the country because my passport was not in order.

@houstonlively

This is not about assigning blame.

This is not about whining, complaining (which I never did).

This is about customer service.

I never once said, "this is your fault". 

I bought a module without knowing the in's & out's of the T&C's of PayPal.  Which isn't clearly defined cause it's not.

I work for a private bank, and I can tell you by reading our T&C's of the mortgages, credit cards, that nothing is clearly defined.

It's all standard generic stuff no one looks at.

That goes for all software, hardware, insurance etc...

When I had a fault with my iPhone, Apple said we'll swap it with another, "no questions asked."  This is an example of good customer service.  And I never had to read the T&C's to discover that tiny tidbit.

A developer has no obligation to refund or swap out a module & if they choose not to then that ISN'T bad customer service either! IF they choose to swap out anything or refund then that is commonly known as a "goodwill gesture". There's a big difference.

I would also like to point out something else.

A iPhone is a piece of hardware. It can be refurbished and re-sold. You also can't put it into into a machine and make an exact copy of it like you can software.

What developers need to do, and should do is encrypt the software and lock it with a product key. However most buyers of scripts do not like to see the scripts encrypted and if they are will not buy them. However i should point out that developers would feel a lot more comfortable dishing out refunds if all we had to do was revoke a product key and the software becomes useless including any and all copies of it.

Of course it is up to the developer to decide if they are willing to give you a refund in this case, i just thought i would try to explain why most developers of software where there is no way to prevent copying and no way to disable it normally don't provide refunds.

I also thought it may help the people that hate encrypted and keyed software to realize one of the potential benefits that developers could offer for software that is encrypted. Such as trial versions, refunds under more conditions. Ability to sell your copy by transferring the license key to someone else. These are the kind of doors that could be opened up if the code was protected.

 This depends though. If a module is listed a being able to do something, and it does not do it (provided every aspect is as it should be for that module to run as described) - then that is cause for a refund as the module does not work as it was advertised.

 Oh ok.

Suppose I could sell the module for half-price together with the license key.  Didn't realise I could do this.  Thought my only option was to give it away for free.

 This does present a question on buying & selling.

If you buy a product, say online, say on boonex.  Should each product/module be provided with T&C's, so that we the customer know what our options are?

For example, when it doesn't work.  Even though 90% of module makers are happy to fix/tweak their modules.  It does leave those odd few times where the product doesn't do what it was intended to do.

I do remember reading long arguments in the past from other members for modules that didn't perform as expected.

---

In my case, I did mention I was happy to provide my FTP at all times to the module creator to show I didn't have it installed.  So there by removing any fear of me using the module after obtaining a refund.  I can see what Deano is saying about the software, which is why I mentioned this in my communication with the maker of the module.

Yes, I think so ... Although most people will never read the T&C's

I feel your pain @LikesDumbBimbos. I purchased a module that cost over $100 and after installation, found that PayPal has a recurring payment restriction. It is not the developers fault that PayPal added this restriction. As much as I would love to have gotten my money back - it was not a justifyable reason, as I did not research PayPals rules. But hey, that's what tax write offs are for.

✓ I have read the terms and conditions = the worlds biggest lie!

That is still up to the developer and you would have to go through the developer to get the license key transfered to the new owner. I was not aware the module you purchased was tied to a key. That give you some room to work with the developer. Or at least it should.

 My bad, ProfessorSr, my response was a direct response to LikesDumbBimbos immediate post before which stated he wasn't blaming anyone & accepted what Deano was saying but also gave an example of an iPhone. The example was different in more than one way. As Deano went on to say, they could fix it & send out again & would probably rather not have bad press about faults on iPhones. The module here though is not faulty & works without any problems so in this case any refund would be a goodwill gesture.  I agree with you if it didn't work then he would be able to claim his money back through Paypal as item received was not as promised.

@LikesDumbBimbos If I bought something paying through Paypal & it didn't do what was promised or I never received it then I would dispute through Paypal & get my money back. I have never failed. If you let someone get away with selling poor quality goods they will continue to & more so Paypal will allow them as they are unaware of problems. In the case of modules, I want a mod to do something, the developer says it will, I buy it & it does so I'm happy. Thats all the T&C's I need really ;)

 
I think your in the US. If so you may want to look into https://www.simplify.com/commerce/ as a alternative to paypal. Fees are similar to paypal. Infact about .05% per transaction lower. And their API allows much better recurring payment control including automatic prorating when switching to a different subscription mid month and you don't need to pay extra for it like you do with paypal to get a pro account. I am looking into it myself for my site, but i don't have a SSL cert and i will need one first as with this place the card number is taken on your own site and not theirs so a SSL site is kinda necessary.

At the moment tho, they only accept US merchants.

off-topic (sorry)- thanks Deano, we actually purchased an account with AuthNet. So far, most is going as it should and the recurring payments are processing. But, because of my nature, I am still looking for how to make it work with PayPal, as a lot of people do use it, and it is a $130 setup fee for AuthNet.

 That's not true. You have the right to sell any software license. The developer can't forbid that.

The reason nobody reads the terms of the software license is that most of it is crap/illegal.

 You only sell the software license. You do not sell the software (bits). It doesn't matter if the software has a license key or not.

A software license is similar to renting something for life.

This is an interesting discussion.  I was under the impression that most commercial software EULA's specifically stipulate the license is non-transferable... meaning you cannot resell, or even give it away, to anyone else.  Many of the developers at BoonEx have put a lot of extra time into improving their products over many version updates and, in some cases, have increased their prices to reflect those extra features.  If it was perfectly legal to purchase old version licenses, which by definition are eligible for free upgrades, then there would be a booming market for many of us that have purchased Dolphin modules but no longer use them.  I have serious doubts about any assertion that it's legal to resell Dolphin module licenses... at least in the USA and Canada.  That said... I would like to see a reasonable way for a site owner to transfer the ownership of all site-associated licenses to a new owner upon a legal sale of a Dolphin-based website.

The big reason I don't like encrypted software; outside of having to run the decryption programme which might add overhead to the script, is that I can not make small changes to the script.  If this is done, the template files certainly need to unencrypted.  Say I have a module that I need an extra field, I can easily add that field without going back to the developer who may not want to add the field or decides that adding an extra field and adding it to the sql install file is worth $100 for a few minutes worth of work.  I had one module that I just wanted it to store the original timestamp and not the current time and the fee the module developer wanted for this change was more than I considered it was worth.  I studied the code and did it myself.  For this reason, encrypted files may be a deterrent to purchase.

It varies.  I know that some licenses you had to sell the physical media, the license if printed separately; such as those stickers, and you had to remove all traces from your computer.  However, some started to be a bit more aggressive in the EUL   Microsoft tried to be too aggressive in transfer of games with their game console and the community gave them a good lashing and Microsoft retreated.

 
At some point in time i will be adding licensing to my products. However i will not be encrypting the entire php script. It is not necessary to do so. I would have to carefully write it so that i only had to encrypt certain functions to keep the licensing system from being tampered with and leave most of it open for modification. Not 100% fool proof that way, but i am only looking to create a big deterrent.

 PKForum will be doing this...

It would be up to the developer as to what they do or don't do.  In this case, it appears the developer isn't even answering the emails.

Let's say I was the developer and I got the email.  I know the customer can not use the module because PayPal has permanently banned them from using PayPal.  So now it moves to the customer holding the module on their computer.  I have no way of knowing if the person would delete the module or not.  They could use the module on a site in the future that is not banned by PayPal.  Now if I decide to refund, the person would have to delete the module, all copies they have access to both local computers and servers.  This would have to be a faith based decision based on the reputation of the customer in the community.  Let's say I say OK, I will refund and you delete all copies you hold.  Then I remove the module from their shopping history or have Boonex do it if I don't have that authority.  This is all based on trust that the customer will do as I requested.  Or maybe I decide to negotiate a partial refund.  Again, it is all up to the developer of the module to decide yes, no, maybe.

I can understand the reluctance from the developer because there is no way to guarantee that the customer will delete the module and not use it in the future.

It will be interesting to see how the licensing is set up.  Everyone is quite aware of what happened with a certain payment/membership module that was licensed.  I will refuse to go through that sort of shit with any module.  Which of course means I won't be buying a module that can break when the licensing breaks.  The developer of that module got a lot of negative feedback from the community using that module and their reputation took a serious hit.  If you are going to license, you better get it right the first time.

 That's not how a software license works. It is not tied to some physical object or some bytes stored somewhere. Many people don't get it right.

A software license allows you to actively use the software on x computers or by y employes. x and y are defined in the license terms. You are allowed to store copies even if you don't have a license.

 i would have thought this was already the case as all modules i have bought that have a licence, the licence is tied to the domain name and not to me personally, so surely if you sell a site including the domain name there shouldn't be a problem

There is of course another issue with encryption. Just take a look at the Market on here & the number of modules incompatible with latest version. A developer could take on a redundant module if they had purchased it themselves & release it.....naturally after ensuring the original developer is no longer around to maintain the original package. Thus helping the community by keeping it as current as possible. He/She couldn't do that if any of it is encrypted, they would need to start all over.

 That's easy. You just give them your boonex account.

We noticed and learned.  Our license tracking server is in the cloud with a reputable provider that guarantees excellent uptime... but even if the license server went down it would not affect PKF licenses for several days... enough time to bring the server back online.  Plus each license owner will have an account on our Activation Server so they can manage their license(s), including moving them from one domain to another whenever they want to. 

I also have the payment module you're referring to and have experienced the frustrations whenever his tracking server went down and whenever I wanted to move the module to another domain name... but was forced to wait for the developer to do it.

No so easy for me.  In my boonex account, I have many modules that are or will be used for current and future projects.  So we need a reasonable way for module buyers to transfer select modules, informing the module developer in the process, from the buyer's account to the new site owner's boonex account.  Possibly, in an attempt to be reasonable to the developers, there could be a limit of one transfer per module.

 A software license is about the same as the one for a book and music CD. But people get confused because there they get some paper or a plastic disk together with the license. The value is in the license not the medium. Is selling used books illegal in the USA? Do you not have/had any libraries?

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9228762/EU_court_rules_resale_of_used_software_licenses_is_legal_even_online

 I think Boonex is a small buisness for modules developers. To be fair you could pay them for the work they have to transfer the license.

 I live in Canada... I've yet to find anything stating it's legal here.  And I'm very thankful used books can be resold... I have purchased many hundreds!  I also rent audio books from the library, which is great for long drives (Canada is a big place) but I only have them for a limited time... so referring to libraries may be a bit outside the scope of our discussion about reselling a license that has an EULA stating it cannot be transferred.

 Again, that's not how it works. You have to find something stating it is illegal.

 EULA stating it cannot be transferred.

Most of the things stated there won't hold in court.

referring to libraries may be a bit outside the scope

When you get a book from a library you get a temporary license. It's like if the book was resold every time.

I'll look again when I have time... last thing I found was a case where AutoCAD won a judgement stating their licenses could not be resold (i.e. "resold" in this case referred to selling the licenses on eBay).  Oh and just because YOU say that essential parts of EULA in every country is crap does not make it so... unless you happen to be an expert in the area... for every country ;-)

 One thing you might miss: Applied law is the one of the country of the seller. Unless he has an office in your country or states it in the EULA.