Extreme Moderation.

Kicking Dolphin_Jay (even if temporarily) or anyone who comments on a public forum is a little extreme. 

Especially since his contributions to the community as a whole clearly exonerate him from any "hijacking" status.

Not everything is black or white.  Less totalitarianism, more community.

Just sayin'.

ps:  Yes, the oxymoron of "Extreme Moderation" is deliberate.

pss:  Nathon Paton, Zarcon, and other moderators do a great job.  I appreciate your work.  I was just disappointed to see this response.

I'd have to agree.  Some heads are getting a little big around here. 

It's not my call.  Zarcon made the topic and said it was for certain people.  dolphin_jay decided to ignore that warning and post.  If Zarcon wants to suspend him for 24 hours (which is what he's doing), so be it.

Well King Zarcon may as well ban me too, because I think it was a pretty chickenshit thing to do,

BTW... I think Dolphin Jay's comment was spot-on

Jay got kicked? This is ridiculous. 

While one could appreciate Zarcon's marshal law approach in straightening up the market, targeting two of the communities biggest & most respectable contributors is hardly the way to go.

I don't care how bold you make your statement, in a public forum expect public response (no matter how just you think you are). There are better avenues to approach such a dispute, how about e-mailing the developers directly rather than depend on unity's intermittent mail system?

I just think it's unfortunate all the way around:

• The developers should have responded through PM.  ESPECIALLY since the moderators are volunteering their time.
• Dolphin_Jay should have respected the moderators request to have only the developers listed to respond.
• Moderator was figuratively taunted to show he's serious.  I would have pulled Dolphin aside through PM and just hid his forum comment.  Actually, I probably would have asked that other members please allow the Developers to respond on the forum and please not comment, but I wouldn't have put myself in a situation where I have to "prove" I'm serious about taking action.

All being said, I don't think there was any harm or foul intended by either the Moderator or Dolphin_Jay.  I was just disappointed.  I think the lesson here is one of intent.

I do not believe dolphin_jay has been suspended.

If you're referring to his profile not loading, it's been that way for over a month. I do not remember the exact date it happened. Ever sence boonex made changes to prevent injection of code to display images in the profiles info area.

My profile did the same thing which i caught after a couple of days. I do not think he realizes his is broken yet.

If the account was suspended there would be a message there indicating the requested profile is not available.

i agree, that if you post in a public forum, expect a public response. i posted on that topic, not anything detrimental to the cause, but surely one cannot expect you to ignore what i consider a malfunctioning methodology. there are many more who need to be called out, and starting with modzzz and scriptologist just seems well i wont say, but i would like to see this same approach when one of the boonexers releases a piece of shit module to the market. bet that wont happen, as andrew boone has already stated that he and his employees are above any rules that are laid down on this community. quit the communistic approach. i hang out on several forums xda and many other android forums where there are literally thousands upon thousands of users on the forum, and never do you see this type of behavior going on on those forums. 

what is wrong with boonex that it has only a handful of developers and only a handful of acutal dolphin users that use this site, and this site is always up in some form of turmoil. i dont get it. i am thinking of bailing from dolphin altogether, too much bullshit from the top down. 

Look at it this way: Zarcon was fed-up with not getting a response from two developers, so he decided to make a public topic to get their attention.  He wanted the problems resolved so he can take a much-needed and deserved break.  He did not want that topic becoming a place where anyone can post on their experiences with the developers or any other random crap (like what's happened so many times in disputes.  I don't care if Joe Developer has done a great job with your site, this doesn't involve you.).  So he made that note about not posting unless you were the target audience.  I think that's fair enough, and people should respect it.  Have a comment?  Send him a PM, or do something else.  Go play an Atari game.  But some people decided to ignore this and post anyway.

Is anyone currently suspended?  No.  Zarcon hasn't pushed the button.  My post to dolphin_jay was mostly for fun, but also pointed out that he opened himself up to something happening.  If he wants to ignore moderator warnings, so be it.  It's Zarcon's call, and he's within his rights to do something if a member doesn't respect his position.

I'm not saying a public topic is the best idea, but if it's to shame a developer to get their attention?  Worth a shot, I guess.  I usually give a developer a deadline to respond, and then suspend them if I don't hear back.  In this case, I probably would have done that and told them to respond next time rather than continue to piss me off.

Is it extreme?  Depends how you look at it.  dolphin_jay is an important contribution to this site, but that doesn't mean he's exempt.  As Zarcon wrote in that topic, even premium members are suspended.  Hell, I must have banished at least a dozen premium members to the moon.  There's no special treatment.  If you break the rules or ignore a moderator's warning, something is going to happen.  Don't test it.

I'd rather not see drama like this happen.  I'm too tired to deal with drama.

Edit: Hey, if it helps, consider the idea that anyone else posting in that topic would technically be off-topic, because the topic at hand was modzzz and scriptologist responding, not some random person.  Now I'm really tired.

Well it's nice to see that I got some people's attention on this and it was exactly my intention. Has anyone been suspended? No. Should they have been? Yes as I asked not to post in there. I have now locked that forum topic since a couple people have already decided to post in there anyways.

I believe everyone is missing the point here for the most part. We get complaints about modules in all forms purchased from the Market. Some of these issues have been happening for months without resolution. The most popular thing we hear is.. "I have sent the developer an email x days ago, and they have still not responded." We get PDF files over 10 pages long with screenshots of the errors, messages, and IMs where the promise of a refund by the developer was never given.

When moderators get involved, the first thing we do is contact the developers ourselves to get both side of the story. If we do not get responses either or something advising that the issue has been resolved,  we have no other choice that to try alternate techniques. I do not have every developer's IM or personal emails, so my only other option is to post something in the Forum (to rule out any issue with BoonEx mail).

You can call it Extreme, Harsh, Chickensh** (actually laughed), or whatever you what. But if you all take a moment to think about this..Open the forum and look at it.. Guess what, the developers involved RESPONDED.. I already stated this before but I will say it again, the reason I asked that no one outside the request to refrain from posting in that forum topic was because.. well.. It has nothing to do with anyone else. I didn't want that topic to become a mud-slinging contest or a 'praise' board for the developers involved. I do find it quite funny that even though the request was made, some decided to post there anyways.

I have absolutely nothing against any of the developers involved or the members who posted in there. I have to keep an unbiased frame of mind when it comes to moderation.

I cannot tell you how many times I have read that BoonEx needs to do something more about these crappy modules getting sold, people getting ripped off, or code thieving, among other things. I know that Myself and Nathan have been trying our best to somewhat keep in under control. I cannot watch everything everyday. I have a family and a full time job to boot. So BoonEx is something I volunteer for.

Let me ask you this.. If you were in the same situation where you purchased a mod that didn't work or you could not get the support from a developer, wouldn't you expect us moderator's to help you do whatever it takes to get the issue resolved??? If not, then you can let us know that up front and we will not waste or time with you.

I'm sorry that some people find that what I did was 'extreme', but I had enough of waiting and it was time to get responses.. and it worked.  BTW, that topic is now locked and will be removed once I get the final response from the only person left. (Also my intention).

Actually I owe you an apology Zarcon.  I'm sorry.

You did not suspend Dolphin_Jay and I thought he might have been suspended since his profile was not able to upload when I clicked on it.  It was my error and I apologize.

Thank you, Deano, for pointing out his profile was just not uploading (perhaps because of code he has on his profile).

Again, everyone, I apologize.  It was my error. 

Please help me to show the moderators some love on here.  They do a great job.  Keep it up.

@cnbarry - I appreciate the apology, but you are entitled to your opinion as well.

Normally this can happen when people rush to judge before knowing the 'whole' story. For example, I did not rush out into the forums and make that post because I received a complaint yesterday. This is something I have been personally deal with well over a month. And some were even handed off to my by other Moderators.

So to give everyone a little more insight, some complaints have been since last year without resolution.

But again, I do appreciate your response.

I have to agree with the moderators here,

I cannot tell you how many times I have read that BoonEx needs to do something more about these crappy modules getting sold, people getting ripped off, or code thieving, among other things. I know that Myself and Nathan have been trying our best to somewhat keep in under control. I cannot watch everything everyday. I have a family and a full time job to boot. So BoonEx is something I volunteer for.All of us have had complaints of modules and problems getting them fixed.

Zarcon is right here; look how long it took for the programmers to respond. That day. 

I look at these forums as a newspaper updating us on the true stories.

Why keep those hidden, we need to know that it takes months [edit] to a year to get a defunct module to work correctly.

I have worked on many member sites here with modules from so many vendors that NEVER respond back to their customers when they have problems. To top it off, they ask for monies to fix, stating it is from other site errors when it usually is not.

Doing it that way (the demand from Zarcon) lets all peoples here know what is really going on.

I think new members are intimidated by some seasoned members here that belittle most and are afraid to post about simple problems, I get mail all the time asking if I know how to correct module problems.

Just my opinion. 

Hi

I support Zarcon

- Is it really too diffcult to observe a simple instruction...

**** WARNING:  I expect ONLY Modzzz, Scriptologist, BoonEx Staff, or Moderators to reply to this forum topic. Anyone else will be considered a hostile hijacker and will be reprimanded ******


instead of criticism - you'd better thank him for his work

Daniel

[edit]instead of criticism - we should thank all of the moderators for their work.instead of criticism - you'd better thank him for his work

 I don't know much about this but i support Zarcon after reading this. He made himself clear, no doubt.

In the end I want everyone to know that those who support me and for those that don't, I would (and will do) have done the same exact thing for you too if you were in the same situation (hope that never happens).

There was no blaming, name calling, or labeling of anyone in that post. I myself have purchased mods from both of those developers. Have I had problems with their mods before? Yes. Have they helped me resolved them? Yes.

When it comes to moderation though, you cannot play favoritism on anyone. You can't take action on some and not others. One of our rules of being a Moderator is to remain fair and unbiased.

Actually, I am glad this post come up. I think the members here (old and new) should be more involved with Moderators here at Unity PUBLICLY. I have always been more than happy to answer questions or concerns that this community has.I'm sure the other moderators would be happy to comply as well.

Makes me think I should start a forum topic call 'Ask a Moderator' and make it a sticky so that people can communicate with us in the public view with questions like 'Would it be OK if I...', or 'Why did you..', or maybe even, 'What steps do you take to moderate before taking action?'.. Maybe the more interaction members have with us, the better they would understand who we are and why we do the things we do. Just a suggestion.

I support the *volunteer* Moderator's decision to post to the public forum.  Yes it can be labelled "extreme" but it should not have reached that point and wouldn't have if matters had been dealt with privately in a timely manner.  It's been my experience that moderators prefer to deal with complaints against developers PRIVATELY.   I know some of what happened preceding Zarcon's post and 100% believe his comments that he used the public forum topic because all attempts to privately communicate with the developers had failed to effectively resolve matters. 

 i support your ideology, not necessarily the approach, and as stated there are many more who need to be placed on that callout list. but just something not exposing, such as when deano couldnt find me, he simply posted an inquiry. there are members on here who have extended relationships with some of these developers to the point where they would have a different means of contacting them. point in hand here, scriptologist reported that the boonex messaging system was not working. this seemed to fall on deaf ears, even when he included a screenshot of his attempt?

i think you are doing a great job, i do take offense to the posting of whom you expect to respond in a public forum. you could have been more clear stating no flaming, name calling or derogatory remarks. 

i think these few developers that we have left here, need to be supported, and yes even when they are in the wrongs, but from my reading of that thread, seems there were updates or upgrades that were completed and released in the market, and somehow they were missed by those who were having the problems with the module in question.

i also think that these developers should have an alternate means of communication, and not necessarily for public address, but as a developer, providing staff and moderators a means of direct access.

as a hosting service provider, i have an open door policy, and my phone is always available to my clients, not saying i will always have the immediate answer, but they know that there is more than one means of contacting me. 

i would be willing to help get something setup for a mail solution, where the email address would be part of the module released, staff and moderators could be cc"d on the mail, the mail would be ported to a common use mailbox of the developer, and that way, clear and concise means of communicating is made available. 

i also think you were correct in asking scriptologist to creeate a support thread for his product, and i also think that is there is any product on the market that does not have a support thread, the product should be pulled immediately. 

then if a calling out is needed, then you could and should do that on their support topic, knowing that they should be subscribed to that thread?

now to reflect on my post there i swear that somehow in my browsing or speed reading of that thread, i missed that part where you said you expect only those being addressed, and boonex staff and moderators. but then after realizing that was there, i became irritated, that this seemed superbly communistic, insomuch as I am going to say what i want on an open public forum, but nobody dare negate what i have to say. i went ahead and stayed away a couple of days after that, one because i didnt realize that i was not supposed to post on there, and the other reason, i was getting my ass whipped with a site SSL install.

 zarcon, you do a good job, nathan, i would fire his ass if i were you, he is so slack on here :)

i think also that you guys are warranted more input from the boonex staff, in helping control the market and the lodged complaints.

moderation tools are lacking, that is a huge and tremendous barrier in and of itself. you guys keep doing what you are doing, so what if it ruffles a few feathers. 

I am now a developer as well as a customer, and always have been able to see two sides to a coin.

At first I was appalled when I found out that one needed to go through a public  forum to sort out grievances with developers, I felt it was bad for there business and put them in a bad light. Well I did change my mind when I found myself in a position of writing and writing to developers who choose to ignore complaints when I have put out large amounts of money over and over for crap modules that the developers who create them want money on top of money to fix what I've already paid for., that is if they even do reply.

We have good developers and the crap rip offs are being sorted over time and booted for that I am very glad.. Its always an option if you pay for a module via paypal you can start a dispute which I have only done once, which was because that person just talked in circles for so long to avoid refunding me for something that created problems on my site as when the core code is changed it can impact other functions on ones site. That is why I will never change core files with any modules I create. Then I know without a shadow of a doubt that I am not affecting anything other functions of dolphin. Gee it has its own problems I don't want to add to them lol.

I appreciate the moderators, what a bitch of a job I say I'd not want it. lol. I need you guys, very much, and I have faith in Zarcon and Nathan. . Keep on keeping on guys you know what you are doing.

DosDawg... I agree 100% with your comment above!  (Edit: free modules can be exempt from such a rule.)

I'm sure at some point a support forum will be a default setting with any product/service offered on Boonex at some point.

I had to create a "support" forum for the mediawiki/dolphin integration a while back because the developer didn't create one.  It ended up getting his response because it was public, but definitely should be a default adjunct to any item sold.

The support forum is part of adding a product to the market. It automatically feeds it .

The problem is when a developer creates a product, but chooses to opt out of support forum along with it. 

Here is an example of a $200 product posted 4 hours ago without a support forum.

I suggested a long time ago that when adding a product to thew market, a support forum be automatically created, and the developer be automatically subscribed without the option to unsubscribe.  It shouldn't be that hard to do, and most developers wouldn't mind.

@lworld, do you mean it should be or is already part of adding a product?  As far as I know, developers *choose* whether to add a support forum... it's not automatic.  In my opinion, the best *active* developers have added support forums for each of their D7 commercial products.  And they should... it's a "much-better-than-nothing" indicator the product is supported.

Unfortunately there appears to be nothing to prevent a developer (eg. scriptologist) from ignoring both client and moderator requests to add a support forum. Maybe what BoonEx should do is allow site moderators to add a clearly visible WARNING note to each product where a support forum was formally requested by a moderator but has yet to be created.

Although Zarcon has tried to be as diplomatic as possible and smooth any ruffled feathers I would like to express my opinion as well.

I appreciate that some have re-evaluated their positions and offered Zarcon their apologies.  Some offer support for his efforts and others offer support , but.. this should be or that should be....

I try to keep a low profile, I don't post much and most of the time I just kick matters I don't really know how to deal with properly up to another level. I will say though I have a problem with people who have a tendency to always stir sh*t, complain and offer knee jerk negative reactions.

I'd like to point out that Boonex is a business and there are many newer members also reading here. When people go on their rants and start criticizing and making threats, especially on posts that are clearly none of their business it affects more than just the moderator or the object of their dissatisfaction. It affects the mood of the whole forum.

Having said that I 'd like to advise you to watch how you post here. The next time a longstanding member wants to throw their weight and say,"you should ban me too" (when no one has even been banned) expect me to suspend you the instant I read that type of comment. If you say I don't need this bullsh@t I am going to bail, have no fear I'll be glad to help you out and give you a vacation.

This is not to say never make a negative post or share your concerns or complaints, but I would expect common courtesy for all on these forums, moderators, customers, developers  and new members alike.

This is just my personal view on the situation and you have a right to your own, but be a little more careful how you present it in the future.

 RE:

There's no need to use ambiguous terms like" longstanding member".  It's OK to use my name here.  I'll own up to that statement, and the part of it that was censored as well.  I stand by it.  If you want to give me a vacation, then man-up and do it.  See if I care.  Just say the word, and I'll agree to a voluntary, self-imposed suspension where I don't make a single post for a year on this site.

Fact is, when you guys start to think it's cool to use the "tough guy" approach on the two members that were "Shamed and it worked" (a direct quote from a SuperModerator... whatever that is), then you need to work on your people skills. The two developers that were "Shamed" are several of the best this site has to offer, and the whole "tough guy" approach in a public forum with them was all wrong.  They deserved a little more respect than that.  There are some real scumbag mod purveyors here that get more respect. 

You post in a public forum titled "Dolphin 7", things that have no business in that forum, and expect everyone to just accept it.  If you want to be helpful, figure out a way to settle these things between the parties involved, without publicly dragging people through the mud that don't deserve it.

We have a 'disputes forum' that is where Zarcon should have posted. We could then have avoided the 'Public Forum' argument.

For Nathon to say 'this is not technically a dispute' is rubbish, it was the culmination of one. Houston lively is right, you 'out' two reliable developers (like we have lot's of them?) but you do not resolve the issues related to other bad and unreliable developers.

Plus support forums should be mandated for any developer who has a product in the market (Scriptologist please note).

Those who back Zarcon's approach are correct, he was right to do it, but it should have been in the 'Disputes Section'.

As for Nathon, he tries too hard to be humorous to be taken seriously.

Stuart

           Yes i was.