HL - this wasn't intended as a slam against you - your sites don't appeal to me visually but it it entirely possible that I just have bad visual tastes - I do tend to like things that aren't too loud. My post was that in this case I don't think the visual issue is the problem. It has something to do with the functionality I think. On Dolphin it is deeply buried and difficult to use while on that other site the functionality is on the surface and immediately available. What should be of concern see more to everyone is your statement that "a successful Dolphin site has yet to exist" - I don't see where people have posted any here - just more "Rob you suck" posts. I already know I suck, I am trying to find out who doesn't suck here so I can emulate them. I also agree that number of members is not a good measure of success, though it is one measure. That is why I made this point about "engagement".