Development & Beta Tests. How & Why

mydatery posted 30th of October 2009 in Community Voice. 29 comments.

I know it's frustrating to a lot of people as they're waiting for Boonex to complete the Beta Tests of D7 & move forward with an RC, after all, the deadlines have been long surpassed and promises seem to be broken.  I'm going to try for once to not put my opinion in this, instead just relate the facts as we have learned them.  The best way to do this might be to step back and instead look at it from work that my team does on development.

 

We've found ourselves to be in a similiar situation that Boonex is in as we develop a new product and bring it to market.  The only exception is that we've made no promises as to what the release date will be for us as far as another Beta, RC or Final Stable Product goes.

 

We have spent months in developing a hi-bred version Dolphin 6 that utilizes the base and then varies off into a very specialized area.  What we have found out in the development and Beta testing of this product is the following:

 

1.  Glitches happen and they are unavoidable in development.

 

2.  We can not possibly test our product the way that end users will test it.

 

3.  End Users will through their use of the product discover errors that we can not possibly anticipate until they use it.

 

4.  Error Logs are our best friend in the world, as an end user will never describe a problem as accurately as the server will explain it in the log.

 

5.  When we fix a glitch other glitches can and do occur. 

 

6.  Items must be prioritized and higher priority items must get  what they need even if it means sacrificing a lower priority item.  In our case, security is absolutely paramount and all other items must fall into line behind it or the item is done away with. 

 

So, with that in mind, let's look at what Boonex has going on with D7:

 

So far we have 8 Beta test versions (potentially 9 as Beta 8 was just re-released with upgrades due to the security issues)

 

Boonex is encountering the same issues that all others developing software run into.  Glitches that only end-users can locate through random use of the software; Repairing glitches to only encounter additional glitches as the repairs happen and it goes back out to be tested. 

 

I'm actually suggesting that people continue to be patient and keep the following in mind:

 

1.  There is no ironclad date for an RC or Stable release of D7 regardless of what Boonex or anyone else says.  We can listen to what people say, including Uno, about when it should be out, but until it is and proven then that date is just a goal and nothing more.  Truth be told, this is development and as such we can only anticipate as it's a brand new product.

 

2.  We are better off with Beta tests until all the bugs are resolved than we are with an RC that has a ton of Bugs in it.  Look at it like this:  Had D7 B8 been instead the D7 RC1 how upset would everyone be when it failed as miserably as it did due to the inc/security.inc.php file?  I can only begin to imagine how much we would of heard on the blogs & forums in regards to that mistake.

 

3.  Be willing to participate in the Beta tests, especially if you have substantial experience with Dolphin and/or other CMS's and a community that is willing to subject themselves to it just for fun.  Don't underestimate your end users, they will keep creating things if they know it's just for fun and you don't promise them this is the last time.  You know it's not, so don't promise them that.

 

4.  If you have projects that are dependent upon D7 to third party clients and have promised them a date for D7, take a moment and think long and hard about what you have done.  If you are about to open your mouth and give a date you should immediately stuff a Twix in your mouth to give yourself time to think.  At this time, there really is no set in stone date for D7 to be released and you should not be promising clients a release date.  In the end, your the one that looks bad for this.  Look at it this way:  We are finishing up development of a D6 hi-bred that we spent months working on for a specialized industry to help them accomplish a goal that was completely neglected by the web/software industry.  We anticipate that we will spend 6-9 months of development time with D7 before we even mention to our clients that we have it as an optin for them.  Yes, we woud love to be able disclose all the great things D7 has today, but we know that our clock will not start ticking until D7 is stabilized and the same will go as far as Poisedon is concerned (anticipating release in the spring but not holding our breath on it)

 

Basically, I'm just saying that we all know Boonex is working hard on D7 and they have developed an amazing piece of software that any of us will be proud to be running/marketing once it's completed.  This software does out of the box what many have imagined their sites doing when they first downloaded D6 and we're amazed to find in it and then started looking at mods.

 

In closing, I just want to say I'm not trying to toot my own horn or anything like that, rather just using the personal experience that has been gained through  development of our package in hopes that others can begin to better understand the position that Boonex is in.  When the newbies come into Unity they read the blogs and a few have started to comment that it feels like a war and Boonex doesn't care by reading the posts of members, when we all know that is so far removed from the truth it's not ridiculous.  Let's just take a moment and give Boonex a break on this as they have made incredible strides in their work.

 
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Andrew Boon
Thank you for this post. There was quite a bit of stress with the whole release thing lately. It's really close now, so close we can taste it, but now it's the security update that puts off everything.
houstonlively
Forget everything Mydatery said. I want this yesterday.
Zarcon
Agreed. Good post Mydatery. I am normally extremely patient when it comes to testing. I apologize for any offense or ill mannered attitude I may have seemed to display. :)
CALTRADE
Andrew, could you tell us what you mean by "close"? A few days? A week? Longer? Respectfully, we have heard the word "close" used many, many times over the last year. Since the RC was supposed to be released a week ago, could you give us an idea of how far the schedule has slipped so we can plan our work. I would appreciate it.
mydatery
He did tell you the why Rob, because of the security update. It threw alot of items off as it came in and this is what was meant by one of the glitches.

It's like I stated in the blog, it's a developmental item and as such it simply can not have a release date set in stone, if it does then that date will just end up either being missed again or it will result in an RC being released that's filled with bugs and in the end does absolutely no good.
Andrew Boon
We actually planned to have the RC now, but the security update screwed up the plans. It's all good anyway.

Right now we're doing VERY quick security fixes, working all week long. Really want to have the RC released next week.
CALTRADE
@mydatery. I never asked "why" - that wasn't in my comments at all - did you bother to read it? Please don't twist my words, or act like you are a spokesperson for Boonex. You are also dead wrong when you say a product that has bugs will do "absolutely no good" - if the core system is working and we have an upgrade script, we can live with bugs - they will be there anyway.

@Andrew. Thank you for this information - I really, really hope you mean it this time. I'm not trying see more to give you a hard time, but a year ago in November you said it was "on the way" and in January, 10 months ago, you said it was "close". I made a huge mistake by believing this and lost some opportunities that are just heartbreaking. You could have helped us SO much by just giving us an upgrade script- but for reasons I never understood you refused to do this. I had no idea I would end up testing EIGHT different betas and would have to destroy my work each time - it was a massive waste of time and was very harmful to many small business here. Please, please, if the system is not perfect, we understand - just commit to an upgrade script. Please don't get distracted by any drama or make any changes to Boonex until after it is done - everytime it has been "soon" before, this is what happened.
leesta
I am Agreed with you. very good post brother.
nix1602
As always the voice of reason speak via MD, thanks for the post
houstonlively
One of your best posts Mydatery. Anyone that doesn't understand your points, probably has never been involved in R&D cycles or the manufacturing of a product. Just because something is not a piece of hardware or something you can pick up and hold, doesn't mean the logical flow of manufacturing is different. When engineering a piece of hardware, you build a prototype, then you test it. You learn from your mistakes, and repeat the process until you get it right. Software/scripts follow the see more same logic... you go through however many prototypes you need to get it right before you sell it.... well.... unless you're Microsoft.

Some things never change. Whether your engineering a piece of hardware, or developing a complex php application, there's always someone that doesn't understand the development cycle asking when you're going to be done with it. They demand an answer, so you give them a guess. Then... shit happens... you overshoot your guess.... then the clueless one comes back and hounds you as to why you didn't deliver when you promised. They don't understand the difference between a guess, and a promise. Most of them wouldn't be able to figure out how to manufacture rubber dogshit, yet they huff and puff every time the schedule slips. In the end, when the product is a great success, they like to credit themselves for one reason or other. It's really nauseating.
We live in an Instant Gratification World now. By now, anyone complaining about release dates and such, and using a BETA on a live site should just be ignored and the real work continued towards making a final release of D7 stable, secure, and functional. If the "I want it NOW" crowd hasn't figured it out by now, they never will.
CALTRADE
You have developed a highly modified version of D6.1.6. It is a good site. I know this because I looked at it when Houston was accusing you of being "a spammer" after you made a blog post telling us how proud you were of it, and happy you were with the technology. Now you are here mocking people who have taken a different approach - calling us the "I want it now" crowd and saying our opinions should not be respected and we "should just be ignored".

Should I remind see more you that there was a time when your opinions weren't respected - to the extent that Boonex was forced to delete your post - even though you were essentially praising them? You might have been the last one here to make a heavily modified D6 site - so I doubt that upgrading to D7 will not be all that easy. With Andrew now saying the beta that was supposed to be ready last week will now be ready next week, would you advise anyone to take your same approach? - i.e. to heavily modify a D6 site? When everyone has their D7 sites working, and it turns out that there is some feature you want, would you like people to mock you and say you were a fool to modify a D6 site just before the new release, and that you should "just be ignored". Think about it.
CALTRADE
and by the way bigal - have you done any testing of any of the betas yet? If you have, I certainly haven't seen you report any bugs or issues. I've loaded and configured all eight betas - some multiple times. In fact, have you even lifted one little finger to help with the beta? If you ever do use D7, you will certainly be taking advantage of the work of the people who have done this work. Do you really think you have the right to say "they should be ignored".
Nope, havent messed with D7 at all. Just recently installed 6.16 after waiting about a year for it to smooth out. It is each individual's choice as to whether or not they wish to beta test a product, I just do not have time to do testing as my site takes my full-time attention.
My opinion has not changed about ignoring those who are continually complaining about release dates and so forth. When a final version is released, go for it. Until then, either contribute to it's development as you see more have stated, or just deal with it until it does come out.
CALTRADE
Oh really. What if instead of next week, as Andrew now says, it was three months from now - that is how long it will take to create a "bug free system". Would you still have the same opinion? What if after those three months, it was decided they would need another three months, to really ensure that there are no bugs. Would you have the same opinion then? What if it was then decided to take a full year, to make it really really good? Would you care then? Not caring about the release see more date is the same as not caring about the product.

The world is not sitting still while we wait - competitors are developing alternatives, business relationships are being damaged, opportunities are being lost. The people who really do care about this - and have plans for real world applications, are exhausted by being mocked by some of the people in this forum for expressing their opinions - I know, because many of them have written me. Calling their opinions "dogshit" or "nauseating" is the reason the best people here have become disgusted by this forum.
houstonlively
If it takes 3 months, 6 months, or a year.... then that's what it takes.

I have to take Boonex at their word when they say they are working on this as hard as they can. Even though I too, would like to have this in hand right now, I also realize that no amount of nagging is going to give the Boonex team some sort of magical power that allows them to work even faster. Boonex's ONLY obligation is to their own product and support of that product once it's released. They are NOT responsible for see more anyone's self inflicted injury caused by them promising something they couldn't deliver. It's not like anyone has entered into a contract with Boonex with an agreed upon completion date. Everybody misses speculative delivery dates, because there are always unforeseen obstacles that come into account. Not everything is like baking a cake where you have a predetermined list of ingredients, and a predetermined proceedure to complete it. Complex applications like Dolphin 7 are built with creative thinking, and often there is no past experience to accurately predict how long the creative thinking process will take to figure out things like albums, or privacy controls, or groups, or events, or bug fixing, or security audit responses. For those things, there is no fixed recipe to follow, there is no predetermined list of tasks, and often there is insufficient past experience to draw upon, and without those, time projections are simply a guess. Asking for 100% accurate time projections is like asking how long it will take a tree to grow to exactly 40 feet tall. Outwardly it sounds like a simple question with a simple answer, but the reality is, there are many unpredictable events that can alter the equation.
CALTRADE
Since you are one of the few people in this community who has never developed a D6 Dolphin site, and you now say it won't bother you if it takes even another year for D7, it just means you are not serious about developing something for the real world. It is fine that you are here for some other purpose- whatever that is, but try to stop mocking the the members here who want to develop something serious with this product.
houstonlively
The fact that I am serious about my development efforts is exactly the reason I am willing to wait as long as it takes. I am here for the same reasons many others have been, and that has been, and always will be, to urge Boonex to include features and functionality that we know will be needed to make a website stand above the rest. Features that weren't in the original plans a year ago... like member created media albums, and privacy settings, and many more.

I looked at every single social networking see more script available. I downloaded and installed trial versions of everything I could find. One thing I quickly found out, was that nowhere was the level of community involvement in the development stage of a product as there was right here. I discovered a team of developer in Boonex that accepted many of our requests even though it meant delays in launching a product they could call new. I would venture to say that much of the time you like to refer to as delays and broken promises, is actually time Boonex has devoted to answering the needs and requests of this community. I really believe that in the past 10 months, Dolphin 7 has evolved into something well beyond what Boonex envisioned a year ago, largely due to them listening to the needs of the community.

I, for one, am very appreciative of Boonex's dedication to give the members of this community the things they wanted. Once in a while, a feature appears in Dolphin that I cant't stand, that I think is a mistake(cooliris), so I bitch a little, and complain a little, but it's impossible for me to get as angry as you with Boonex, just because the things many of us wanted have taken more time to develop. To get angry with Boonex, more time than we think is necessary, to deliver the things so many of us have asked for, is the height of selfishness. So... yes indeed.... I will wait as long as necessary.
houstonlively
Corrections ot above post:

more time than we think is necessary

Should be:

for taking more time than we think is necessary
mydatery
@Bigal, I wrote the book on Instant Gratification and as I go through my own R&D I'm realizing that sometimes a year really is Instant Gratification. There simply is no way to speed it up.

@Houston, I have to say that your right on this one. People should not be making promises to deliver a product that is not yet on the market. It's just a bad idea overall and hence my suggestion of stickin' a Twix in your mouth the next time you start to consider it.

@Caltrade, I've given you a peak see more into what we've done and how we're going about satisfying a vast list of clients today while securing them for tomorrow. If I sat back and waited for D7 I would not have 1 of those clients, let alone the entire list I'm now holding in my possession, as someone else would have eventually come up with a similiar game plan and acted on it while I waited. Never has waiting on a third party to develop something so you can begin to develop it yourself been a good idea. You have personally worked in Silicone Valley and you know how competitive the market is. You also know that if you wait on someone else then you'll get passed up by the competition and if you release to early it'll just be filled with bugs and that makes you look even worse.

Again Rob, look at it this way: We've taken D6 and re-worked it into a software application that is spinning heads every time it's seen by a new prospect. I've actually had guys look at me and swear it's not based upon D6 due to it's incredible functionality and extreme pliability. I know what your goals are and I'm telling you that D6 fits those goals amazingly well for your clients today. Develop with what you have today and amaze them, then blow them away with what you can do tomorrow after D7 is stabilized and released. But if you just sit waiting on D7 then the competition is going to rip past you at Mach 10 and destroy your chances.

In the end, all I'm saying is to develop towards your goal and show the clientelle that you have the means to create a fully functional piece of software today and the ability to upgrade them tomorrow, this shows them your committment over the long term future and that will build the business relationship your looking for.
houstonlively
lol @ Silicone Valley. I think it's a more appropriate pseudonym.
greymatters
Good Post MD.

Thank you Andrew for Security Checks prior to the release of RC.

Either its a Dating or a Community website, everyone wants to be secure first.

Hope all friends here will wait patiently this time bcoz they all know RC is late for Security Fixes.
 
 
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