Perhaps the most anticipated update in Dolphin 7.1 is finally ready for public scrutiny. Forums have been deliberately postponed to the latest stages of Osho development due to a number of questions that just refused to find easy answers. So, after a lot of discussion, research, pondering and, finally, development we came up with this...
1. Naturally, default Forums look and feel has been updated to match the new Dolphin template. Here's how it looks:
2. Search function now supports "fulltext search", which translates into a more "intelligent" searching functionality where the system wouldn't omit queries with incorrect words order for example, but would consider positions and would adjust results accordingly.
3. Just like in BoonEx Forums, user thumbnails are now displayed in Topics and in Search Result pages.
4. Forums now can correctly handle usernames with spaces (thus potentially supporting Full Names).
5. Pagination added to My Topics, Flagged Topics, Subscribed Topics and Search Results.
6. Quick/Simple search function added to Forums Homepage.
7. Post Permalinks added. Now users can share links to specific posts.
8. Topic creation without the need to open some Forum page first. Just clicking a "New Topic" button would open a page for New Topic posting and a selection of destination forums. Looks like this...
Drumroll... ok, first some background and general info...
Pagination in Forums isn't as obvious as it may seem. This feature can be implemented in a number of ways, which all have their own pros and cons, implications and complications. Until now we have been choosing to simply not support any pagination in Topics, but, naturally, this can't go on forever - some topics can grow to hundreds of posts and would be simply too big a load as a single page.
Potential Solution #1 - Classic Paginate. The most obvious way would be to add a classic "pages" support, splitting every topic into a number of pages with an N number of posts on each. This is a commonly used method and it's also now implemented on all other "lists" within the Forums module. When it comes to pagination in Topics though, there're a few serious problems with this method:
- Subpages are neither user-friendly nor search-engine-firendly. I bet you have found yourself on "search engine versions" of different forums topics, where all posts are merged into one, with images and styles stripped. The reason is that good posts may end up "buried" too far away at pages that aren't even accessible from the first page of the topic. Say, when the topic has 100 pages - search engine or a user would have to open Page 20 first, and then hope to see a link to Page 25. This complicates so many things: often when we search for something and find a forum link in Google and open it only to realise that the text we look for isn't there (it may be relocated due to different pagination setting, edited posts, redirect from SEO to "user-friendly" version, etc.); links to specific pages may end up having different content; in order to keep faraway pages closer to the "surface" for search engines forums often cram in at least 10 of them on one page, making them too small to be convenient in mobile browsers; etc, etc.
- Classic pagination complicates design of the entire Forums functionality. Search results have to consider "pages", link to them correctly, and preferably group posts from one topic, making it difficult to show results snippets. Page counts need to be added to topic lists, cluttering them and adding load. A slew of settings for pagination need to be added. It just goes on and on!
- Fluid nature of topic content (again, due to potential moderation changes and settings re-application) makes it very difficult to create permalinks to posts that properly stick to the proper page. Dolphin Forums now have post permalinks feature, which has become possible thanks to the method of "pagianation" we've chosen.
- And finally, even when/if it's all said and done, after, say 100 pages in one post you would HAVE to split the topic or risk making new posts being tucked away too far for search engines to care about, or people to reach to.
Potential Solution #2 - Dynamic Load. This is a fancy, modern way to load older posts - something you see at Facebook, Twitter and most of the newer "feeds". The page just loads additional posts as soon as you reach the end or click "load more button. It looks and works great for some things, but isn't very suitable for forums. Search engines won't find "hidden" parts, and users won't be able to use Page Search for what's not loaded yet. Long posts can also end up being too big for a browser to handle.
Our Solution - Auto Split. So, we decided to implement what we believe is the most simple, straightforward, yet very "friendly" way to separate topics - we auto-split them. Once the topics reaches more than 50 posts, a robot user called "Autopilot" will close current topic and will create a new one with "Title - Part 2" name. The new topic will have a link to the original topic as an opening post, and it will further split into "Title - Part 3" if it grows to over 50 posts, too. Nice and easy! No fuss in search system, plain and effective SEO structure (with friendly links), handy links and no buried pages. Such topics are a lot easier to manage and this method is often manually used by moderators of well-managed forums, so they won't confuse users. Here's how it looks:
As you may expect the new topic looks and works just like any other topic, plain and simple:
...note how old topics are getting locked and the new ones appear with "... - part 2" moniker.
We have played with new forums quite a bit now and can confidently assert that the new pagination, improved search, one-click access to "New Topic" and all the smaller improvements make Forums noticeably more user-friendly and should not brake anything when you upgrade from your existing Forums setup.
Voila! New Forums! :)
We have just added editable "stickies" - so that you can ad or remove "sticky" status for existing Topics; and improved attachments handling - pictures in attachments are now recognized as image files and open in browser instead of downloading as generic files.
Many thanks for the great work you are doing all the BoonEx team
Perhaps I do not write English well, I'm not a great programmer or a large graph as a simple person but I like everything you're doing.
The auto split feature seems like a decent solution, but I fear the approach you've taken on it is only confusing. The process should be more fluid than having a robot user named autopilot visibly spawning new topics and locking the old one. "Archiving" might be a better term and more user friendly, with an icon other than a padlock (which see more
Well, indeed a lot of constrains with deeper integration with other modules come front the fact that Forums are based on what used to be a separate product (Orca), using a "newer" framework. Makeover would be not just a matter of development, but a serious problem with upgrades, so we try to continue gradually connecting the main Dolphin and the Forums into one system.
We're considering/working on some other things you mentioned, but the pagination see more
Thank you for your consideration on the rest of the items. I truly look forward to the beta release of 7.1.
great stuff! Many thanxs...
I'd like to ask:
Are those 3 pagination options configurable or Boonex decided for one of them?
Is the ORca/XSLT backend the same as it was before?
thanx
m.
for me its better to stay with the old way ...
as many mentioned already, it would be nice to have at least the following features:
- editable topic
- editable sticky
- media upload
thanks!
(despite rather unnerving look of shnelson's (he gave your comment a plus) avatar)
You can change the name of course and modify the forum a little to change the icon if need be.
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We did expect that our choice of going for AutoSplit instead of simple Paginate would be controversial, but we firmly believe that this method is superior. To wit...
Yes, in most cases search engines will index long topics with pagination just fine, but indexing is just the tip of the iceberg.
First, with modern search engines you want your fresh content to appear "often" on your "important" pages. Google (we'll use it as an example of any SE) see more
Sorry, but this is the reason I constantly get Google search results, follow the link, only to find out that the terms I searched for don't exist on the page I landed on.
That make this a very bad, bad see more
Just because it's vBulletin doesn't mean they're right. They have to support existing structure now matter what and to do that they have see more
For most VB or IPB forums, each page shows 10 posts. Over 10 posts, and readability suffers. With your auto split method, a 100 post thread will be split into 10 different topics?? This makes sense to you? I don't know anyone in the entire forum world that does this. Over time, the thread fragments will get chronologically spread out all over the place. This just doesn't feel natural. I can't believe the see more
I've searched for "TEIN and Hoopy" - a unique query which is originally resided on page 51. What would happen if moderators delete a few posts, or, say a member with all their posts? The "TEIN and Hoopy" words would move to page 50.. Google wouldn't update it's index for page 51 and 50 often because it's not clued that those page are refreshed, since they'd be only accessible from pages 40-60 see more
49540-1000-post-club-part1
49540-1000-post-club-part2
49540-1000-post-club-part3
49540-1000-post-club-part4
...... everything in between
49540-1000-post-club-part204
(your way will need the thread ID in the url so you know where all the parts belong)
Now you have 204 parts with very similar names, as opposed to 204 different pages with their own unique url. Why would Google treat this any better than standard see more
We didn't invent this method. On many well-managed forums moderators would split long topics, knowing that too many pages is a recipe for troubles. (example - webmasterworld.com - they do have paginate, but they alway split after 5-10 pages. they also use 30 posts per page, not 10).
So, see more
Can you at least try to think of a way to just display only the parent thread for human users, that loads the individual pages, and let the google bots gorge themselves on the countless component parts? Say when a Google user clicks on a search result called 123-Some-Topic-Part-10.php, when the user gets see more
Exactly!
The reasons for intruducing this functions are not logical, or at least the result of brainstorm session that ended badly. Pagination is a much better solution see more
I forgot to voice my thoughts (complain) about attachments.. In an open & growing community, they aren't typically a good idea. There is nothing preventing my users from attaching something malicious for everyone else to download. Can we get the ability to turn them off?
Nobody wants to click on a link to see an image anymore, unless it is to see it full size. Inline display with the post is where it is at. I'd settle for attachments that display as thumbnails & upon see more
So, how about the membership levels in the new OSHO?
Is that a feature that is coming in 7.1? In my opinion this is a must have, ideally in combination with resizing the image to a readable size.