Developers, is Dolphin U awesome? - part 2

Yeah, Dolphin U isn't something that I am going to be getting too excited about just yet.

Okay got it, thanks! I think a more reasonable idea would have been to get the few developers on board which have been chosen & say nothing until nearer the release rather than say "hey we've got a new version coming out but it won't be any time soon". It's like the old question "how long is a piece of string?" I'll carry on with 7 & pretend I never read any of this.

I remember when the big announcement was made for 7.1, and all the promises of it being the big one.

At that time, I had a handful of D sites running and had spent quite some time (and lots of module money) getting them to do something along the lines of what I wanted from them.

I left the running sites on the previous version as they were for clients and were happy the way they were, but the sites I had 'in build', my own projects I was keen to move to 7.1

That was a mistake... 

From the launch date of 7.1, there was a massive delay in all the modules being up-dated, so things were pretty much 'put back to start' and projects that had undergone lots of custom development went on hold.

In fact, they got dropped and never pursued as their moment seemed to pass...

I took some time off Dolphin, working on other platforms, then came back. Inspired to work on a few ideas  I had been brewing :-)

Those ideas are now taking shape (after further investment in more of the latest modules...) and all being well - will be launch ready later this year.

Of course, I could put myself back in the same place - go ahead, or wait for the promises that dU might live up to...

Then again, if I do that, I might just see a repeat of what happened before. 

I guess that once dU is released, it will still be 'in development' for site builders for some time before it can really be used for live sites, unless of course, it does everything you want out of the box without any additional modules or developments.

I know that the sites I have in dev at the moment, will continue on 7.1

When dU is released, I will then start to put it into 'testing' for future sites. 

Hopefully some of the core modules that are not standard to 7.1 will be included as standard on dU for new users to get their teeth into... after all the forum posts about what the most central modules are etc...

I look forward to playing with it, but cant see myself releasing any sites with it for a good while after it launches in reality. 

7.1 is a good product and works well for me at the moment. 

 From reading the post by Andrew, dU will not have any modules, they will be purchased on an individual basis.

although he does suggest that there is more to be announced...

If not, I wander what all the previous posts / blog was about the 'best' core modules we would suggest...

and the thread about what makes a good 'chat' module etc..

hoping for more!

Yes, as I wrote in the first part of this thread:

One thing that has been made clear is that Boonex is switching back to the "core" platform being free, no Dolphin bug or attribution.  Modules by Boonex will be offered in the Market (which is why modules won't be compatible) and one can buy just the modules they need for their site.  This could mean that one can build a Dolphin U site cheaper than current licensing.  Other social platforms use this format.  A license purchase gets one all of the Boonex modules.

 But that would only be if boonex doesn't have outrageous prices per module.

Yes, good point and that did enter my mind.  If a few modules ends up costing as much as a license, then one may as well buy the license and get access to all the modules.  However, it also opens up developers writing competing modules for the Boonex modules; currently we see developers writing add-ons for Boonex modules or creating "premium" groups, blogs, etc.  We may end up with developers creating a competing group module for the Boonex group module and offering it at a lower price than Boonex.  It will be interesting to see what develops.

Dolphin U will include a number of modules by default. The license bit is for current license owners. They'll have access to all modules released by BoonEx.

"Dolphin U will be offering a different "licensing" approach. The core will be completely free. No paid license for link removal will be required. Some of the extensions, however, would be only available for a fee. Most extensions will be offered by third-party developers and some will come from BoonEx directly."

OK, we outside the loop don't know how many modules/extensions will be included for free; I assume it will be very limited because otherwise where will Boonex make their money and they need proper revenue to continue to develop Dolphin.  Of course one can buy a license and get all the modules for free:

"Dolphin Classic Licenses, however, have always been advertised as permanent and with unlimited version updates. This means, that even though Dolphin U and Dolphin Classic are separate products, the current Dolphin Classic license covers either. You can keep using Dolphin Classic or switch to Dolphin U and download all Boonex-made paid extensions free of charge."

This appears to say that one can buy a license and get all Boonex modules for free.  Let's say I am a new user to Dolphin.  I look at Dolphin C and Dolphin U.  I see that Dolphin U has the modules separate and that the total of the modules is more than the Dolphin C license.  Therefore, I buy a Dolphin C license and apply it to Dolphin U to get all the modules.  Then again, perhaps Boonex is thinking of making it where the Boonex modules in the market for Dolphin U will cost as much as a Dolphin C license.  I don't know, do you know Nathan?

Again, a lot of confusion on how it all is going to work.  If Dolphin U is not going to be any time soon, it would probably have been best for Andrew to not release the press releases he did at this time.

It says Dolphin Classic licenses. That's for current license owners. As for if licenses will continue after the release, I can't say. But if so, yes, it'll be covered, but I'm not sure how much the individual extensions will be.

i hope DU covers the issue of mobile app where plenty of things missing. Mobile app doesn't perform Desktop version functionality. In mobile app you can only see your own videos or pictures. One wonders how many time 1 can watch their videos or pics again n again? the purpose of being social dies when nothing coming from public or friends. I hope there is an internal sharing function as well in DU, with out that users always have to relay on fb, twitter etc to share their stuff. As far the concern about license it covers both DC n DU cause you can give any name to it but still it is the part of Dolphin project, same apply with the basic modules. Also need to see the external modules provider if they offered future free upgrade then they have to provide new version for DU or Money back to users T&C baby

 I hope the same. I have some laptops PC and Mac.. It's been over 2 years since I used them. tablet, cell phone, Apps are taking over just like FM replace AM radio.

 CD replace Cassette player now Bluetooth and WIFI are taking over CD.  Just like Netflix replace  blockbuster.

Apps is the way to go. I will not waste a second more on website. I will still keeping it but I have become a seeker by nature always seeking, searching and looking for the best apps out there.

You need to step up Boonex time is running out.

 RE

 Perhaps the mobile app won't  be necessary... at least for the latest generation of smart phones that allow the web browser to access the file system.  If you read through everything that has been publicly disclosed about DU, the goal is to make it's UI adapt to mobile browsers... especially menus and ui elements.

Thank you for your interest even before Beta is out! It is both exciting humbling for us to realise that so many people follow Dolphin U development progress and express their opinion on it. 

We have had tremendously insightful feedback from many developers already and we work on improving Dolphin U right now, mostly following the comments we received. I hope that most web masters would understand and accept that we don't reveal much right now, since so many things are still changing. For example, even some of the main modules are getting renamed, because we didn't get the wording quite right initially. So, instead of creating a lot confusion by talking about this very fluid process tole early, we are making sure that only developers are involved and can experiment with the product before it's launched. 

Now I'll try to comment on some of the questions raised here...

--------- Some of the modules may not even pass boonex requirements, and this screening process may very well overwhelm their staff which will also affect how fast new modules become available for Dolphin U.

This is a very important point to consider. Dolphin U can not have just "anything" slapped onto it. Modules have to be able to install correctly, update automatically and work without disrupting the core or other modules. Pre-approval screening is essential. We are now trying to work out the details of this process, which may involve initial "entry requirements" for interested developers. For new ones it may also include an approval fee of some sort or a submission limit per new member. Too early to tell. Naturally, we hope to be able to afford dedicated staff to process these applications eventually.

----------- I also have a bad feeling that boonex is not going to give the developers enough time before they actually release it to the public. I am not sure they get how many modules some developers actually have.

It is always hard to talk about timing and I am sure that no matter how much else we wait all the developers wouldn't be able or willing to update all of their products. There would have to be a compromise. Anyway, we'll make sure to spend extra effort to demonstrate to our clients that Dolphin Classic continues and will continue to be an important product. We expect a public beta of Dolphin U to come out first and then a full update of Dolphin Classic, before the full release of Dolphin U.

--------- What will the changes in user functionality be? 

It's a whole new experience. Mobile-optimised, touch/tap-mindful, reorganised and reimagined. 

--------- dolphin u might be free but it's going to cost a lot of money to re-purchase all the mods i've got

I would generally not recommend to think about Dolphin U as of a replacement or upgrade from Dolphin Classic. Your Classic extensions will continue to work and Classic will continue to be updated. It will be borrowing the best ideas from Dolphin U as well, gradually. Dolphin U is more for your NEW projects. Some little ideas of hobby-oriented sites would be the best bet - something where you can experiment without worry.

--------- The way I read it was the modules will work on both Dolphin U & Dolphin Classic. 

Without modifications Dolphin Classic modules are not compatible with Dolphin U. Still, U is based on Classic and in some cases modification may be simple and straightforward enough for an experienced developer to perform the adaptation within hours. It depends. Obviously, some modules are focused on Dolphin Classic functionality that isn't even present in Dolphin U. So, again, it's best to think about them as of different products. If you would find Dolphin U sufficient for your new idea - go for it. 

--------- Yes, and it would probably have been better for Boonex to give Dolphin U a different name to clearly distinguish it as a separate product.  

We have considered a different product as well and perhaps it would in some way help to comprehend a distinction among them, but we've already talked about Dolphin 8 so much and the name is so deeply rooted both in code and our minds that we can't just let go of it. Dolphin U it is.

--------  if the two products are very different to the point that one is not compatible in any way.

It's a tricky one. They're practically not compatible now, but the gab will eventually be bridged by various tools and gradual development of Dolphin Classic. It's just too much for us to take care of that at the moment. 

--------SkyForum:  I guess I'm not 'Stoic' enough even though I've been here since 2009.....

This latest invitation was sent to developers with higher than "New" popularity rating. Next up we plan to have a "Premium-members-only" preview.

----------is dolphin U template is responsive ??

Yes, naturally.

----------I'm also not sure what I should share, so I'll leave it to Andrew as well

We are happy with early tested sharing their impressions, opinion and ideas. Just no links and specifics at this stage, please. We're still working on a few things that many may already expect to see and may feel disappointed or overexcited about too early. :) I am sure you understand why we've limited the testing and that understanding can guide you in terms of what can be revealed. 

--------- So basically, even if we were able to give you details about Dolphin U, there is a good chance it may not apply by the time they decide to give a public 'preview'. So no need to give false hopes or expectations.

That!

---------- I will only say that  once Andrew has it in his head that something is a good idea, no amount of arguing will change his mind. It wouldn't matter if everyone on this site was arguing against something.

I will say only that Dolphin U is a great name. :-P

------- 7.1 is a good product and works well for me at the moment. 

That!

-------- I wander what all the previous posts / blog was about the 'best' core modules we would suggest... and the thread about what makes a good 'chat' module etc.

Dolphin U core is very powerful. It is built to accommodate a variety of "functionality-modules" - the actual "sections" of the site, but things that bind them together into one platform - things like Notifications, Profiles, Accounts, Comments and some form of messaging make the "core" of Dolphin U as well. So, the core-only site would be still operational, but should you want to add, say, a "Store" or "Classifieds" or "Polls", then you'd have to go shopping. FYI, so far we haven't made even one module that's specifically intended to be a paid component. We just work on what we thing should make it into the product. 

-------- Apps is the way to go. 

Yesterday my wife "shared" a Facebook video with me. I used an iPad app to view it - the app tried to load the website interface within the app, got confused with ether authentication or permission and returned "content not available". I tried the website version via Safari. Video page opened, but file couldn't play, because the video was Flash-only when viewed via desktop-version. I only managed to view it from my computer. This is Facebook, mind you, with zillions of top-class engineers and developers working on just one site. Problems like this are practically unavoidable when you consider how many platforms, browsers, versons and use-cases have to be considered. You want you site users to be able to come back to familiar and intuitive experience with predictable results, every time, on every device. This is what Dolphin U is all about.

--------- But that would only be if boonex doesn't have outrageous prices per module.

This is rather speculative now, but gnerally we think that a website would on average need about 10-12 additional modules to work well for a certain idea until it becomes popular enough and new modules could be introduced. So, we envision a price range in under $50 per module mark for modules, but this may turn out to be different - will depend on the market.

Thanks for taking time to answer many points made including mine :-)

I for one am excited to see the new development, and am also very happy that 7.1 (sorry - classic!) will continue to be developed alongside dU.

I never used D6, but remember lots of negative comments that it was dropped by those who had invested so much into using it. I got on board early D7 days and am happy with where I've managed to go with that version so far.

Playing with DU alongside this will be a bonus :-)

 Even on latest mobiles  the moveability of website in browsers is limited. Chatting, tagging, taking snaps n uploading, swipe functionality  etc . So a mobile app can do many things which mobile browser wont do it properly. 

I hope the DU core is Ajax friendly.

i think few basic modules of DC wont exist in DU. Only 10-12 will be kept for beta release.

When premium users will be informed about the DU testing?

Thanks for your response Andrew, but the billion dollar question I'd like to ask is, Do you guys plan on implementing REAL TIME COMMENTS in DC/DU?  (I noticed that you did mention notifications) 

"Modules have to be able to install correctly, update automatically and work without disrupting the core or other modules"
This is good I suppose, but what if the core code could be altered in such a way that doesn't hardly affect anything, for example, HL was working on a responsive template or something, and he pointed out that some core code needed to be modified to make his task a lot easier, and from what I understood about it, it made perfectly good sense.  How do you plan to handle such with DU?  Deny us a good and much needed module because it doesnt comply with your module requirements?  Or make the changes (in a very timely fashion) and allow the module?

The other thing I want to talk about is the update automatically part.  This should be totally optional, because if the module is modified in any way, then this will only break things or undo the modifications that were made for the module.

 "Pre-approval screening is essential (for modules)"
This is the exact same BS that Facebook is doing now (with the apps), and I dont see how this benefits us at all.  If you screen the modules, what is in place to prevent the "screeners" from rejecting a great module because its more advanced than the modules made by boonex, and CHEAPER?   Dolphin is supposed to be a "free" animal, and now you guys are talking about further restrictions which could hinder its growth and make our sites better, this is just a really bad idea all the way around.  The only good thing about this is that you mentioned you would have a dedicated staff for this, in which case is still useless because modules shouldn't be screened at all.  The reviews/feedback should be the only screening that is going on.  How about using that dedicated staff to help fix old bugs that were ignored, help out on the forums and provide REAL SUPPORT for dolphin instead?  Whats so wrong with that?  EVERYBODY WINS!

"So, we envision a price range in under $50 per module mark for modules"
Do you mean "in under" like $49.99? Seriously, I hope that the modules you guys are charging that much for are going to be extremely advanced modules, and I do mean extremely, and not just some very basic module which should've just been free to start with.  If it was up to me, I'd drop the price for DU back down to $99, and include a basic version of the paid modules, by doing this everybody still wins.  You guys are still making money all the way around the table, we get a full site, and if we need something more robust, we have an option to purchase it (at a reasonable price) 

Modules in general:
Do you guys plan to implement features that we request in your paid modules? (like the good developers here does...and in a timely fashion).

"Dolphin U is more for your NEW projects. Some little ideas of hobby-oriented sites would be the best bet - something where you can experiment without worry.  But then you say "Dolphin U core is very powerful.....I would generally not recommend to think about Dolphin U as of a replacement or upgrade from Dolphin Classic".  I find this a bit confusing.  Each version of dolphin (so far) has been much better and more advanced than its previous version.  No matter what its called, the bottom line is that it should be more advanced, powerful and just better than D7 all the way around.  So far, it looks like you are heading that direction with the whole mobile friendly problem that most of us are facing, but I hope that isn't just it.  When you say "its very powerful" then it shouldn't just be limited to "hobby oriented sites", it should be capable of being able to handle any kind of site that a site owner may have in mind.  Why wouldn't it be good enough to use DU for some of our old idea's, or bump our current sites up to the NEXT LEVEL?

I found Andrew's comments about the way modules are going to be handled in DU rather disturbing as well; sounds like the way that Apple does business.  The idea of modules not requiring changes to the core is fine but how is Dolphin U going to accomplished this?  The majority of the modules I needed to have the functionality I needed required core changes.  Unless Dolphin U has a much more robust plugin architecture I just don't see it happening.  If Boonex drives away the module developers from writing for Dolphin U, then Dolphin U will flounder in the waters off of Australia.

And it is still a crappy name.

Andrew,

First, thanks from dropping into the thread to help clarify some of the numerous questions surrounding dU.

From your answer to my question about user functionality (that it will be much more mobile rich & friendly) I'm wondering if thats going to be the main, and pretty much only, focus in the enhanced user experience (let me also say that a better & more forward thinking mobile approach is necessary and very welcomed).   I have spent a lot of time and dollars building a fairly robust site that is almost ready for prime time.  If dU isn't going to dramatically enhance a web based experience on a cpu and through a traditional browser, then I'll probably stay with my 7.1.4 site for a loooooong time.  If the real upgrade in UI is with mobile, it would be awesome if boonex were forward thinking enough to make sure those upgrades are fairly easy to integrate into a dC site and that intent was incorporated in the coding infrastructure as dU development goes forward, thus your current clientele get the best of both worlds and your new customers get a shiny new CMS.   

That thinking would also be welcomed if dU plans on improving (or fixing) some of the core dC functionality such as how profile pics/avatars are handled or a better matchmaking system/algorithm.  If/when coding any such improvements, thought was taken as how best to do that for dU and at the same time allow for an easy integration of those elements to be upgraded within dC, it would be much appreciated.

 As you should. Like Andrew stated, this is not meant to be an upgrade and/or replacement.

@GG - That is why developers have been included in the preview. BoonEx wants to know how easy/difficult it is for developers to create 3rd party modules for DU.

Off-topic: Why do I have the tendency to put a H after typing DU?

 RE:

 Probably for the same reason I tend to visualize other interpretations of DU...

Dolphin Useless

Dolphin Unwieldy

Dolphin Unusable

Dolphin Unfriendly

Dolphin Unstable

There's just too many words that begin with the letter U.  Boonex better get things just right, else the community will be renaming Dolphin U to Dolphin Unacceptable

In my personal opinion, I think the whole problem with the development of dolphin is that there is a huge lack of focus. In this, I mean...instead of staying on track and perfecting v7, let's start talking about Dolphin 8...but wait, now we're going to create Dolphin Classic and Dolphin U.

You cannot successfully move forward if your foundation lacks functionality and has many imperfections. Stay on track. Stay focused on the tasks/troubles at hand and you will have a successful product and a happy community of users.

Just my $.02.

I am happy one of my suggestion is being implemented in DU "Auto bug fix for the website" . Updates will notify user there is a bug fix for any problem all the user have been facing in their website, instead of releasing a whole new version every now and then. I hope i am not wrong about it. It will only make bit trouble  for those user who have modified any code but still they will know what they are updating. more over it will reduce the tickets or posts in forum for same issue being discussed again n again. Its like solving problems bit by bit.

Andrew plz plz introduce the retweet, reblog, share type functionality in both DC & DU. Cause users want their content to be shared rapidly instead of sharing an individual link to every one. 

Every one is complaining "Dolhpin U" is horrible name but look we gave it a new name " washington DC & DU "  How cool are they

Dolphin Classic is Dolphin 7. It's simply a new name, and will continue the base that Dolphin has had since v5, while Dolphin U heads off into a more radical direction. If you have a Dolphin 7 site, you'll be upgrading to the next Classic release, not U. Dolphin U is the new name for Dolphin 8, which was renamed because it's really not the same platform.

Looking at Trac, it seems BoonEx is more than capable of developing the two in parallel.

Do you know if Dolphin Classic (Dolphin 7) is going to stay on Trac?  I know Andrew said he moved Dolphin U (Dolphin 8) to a private github so was wondering if the same was going to happen with Dolphin C.

No, but I wouldn't be surprised if all repos on Trac are at some point moved to GitHub, likely after Dolphin U is public and the code doesn't need to be a secret anymore. It's just a better platform all around.

I have a question. Will I be able to use Dolphin U before Christmas?

 Let the people that are already using Dolphin get first priority to use Dolphin U before the public gets to use it. So we have an advantage to be able to stay ahead of the new competition.

 LMAO =)

Yeah ... would be nice! I would have thought current / seasoned Dolphin webmasters (not just developers) would be able to give the best feed back about the new coming Dolphin U

A number of seasoned users and developers already have access since the very early days, and now an additional number of developers also have access to start work and provide feedback on extension development. Please understand that webmasters do not have much to work with at the moment (a lot of features - in fact, most, have not been implemented beyond the core areas like builders and forms). - and don't take it personally if you weren't selected! This is still early development.

I'm not taking personally ... I just agree with Mayzfieldtv that present / experienced Dolphin webmasters should have use of Dolphin U before being made fully public.

edit: deep down, I'm excited to see what it's all about and Dolphin U's capabilities, I'm just not going to be jumping through hoops about it all just yet!

I don't think there is enough there yet for anyone to do any real testing.  I am wondering if there is enough there for a developer to even test a module; unless perhaps in the admin.

 RE:

Yes. We just don't know which Christmas it will be.

See, this is what I don't like! If this is the case; then why the big hype about it all now ? I have better things to be doing else, than getting over excited about something that might not happen for years ahead yet :/

 2025 to be exact =)

I have actually already built a facebook connect module for dolphin u that i am testing. So yes, developers can develop and test modules at this point.

Wheres the 'Dolphin U' demo at ?

It would be awesome if we could at least watch Dolphin U's progress as it's being developed further ...

Plus, we could all give feedback!

I am guessing this is not 'top secret' stuff now ...

 
The Demo is private at the moment. Boonex does not want anyone but those they have invited to see it yet.

Do you accept bribes ?

edit: slips Deano a nice cold beer =)

Sorry. You'll just have to wait.

And i don't drink beer anyway.

But i am short on my rent this month. :) Hence the reason for the 25% off sale i am running.

 RE:

 I'm pretty sure Deano can't be bribed with an imaginary beer.  Slip a couple hundred bucks into his Paypal account and see if that works.

LOL ... it was ice breaker, it might have worked into some information slipping up. I could have gone to the effort of having a real one delivered to Deanos front door but heck, I just learned that Deano don't drink!

just a suggestion,

a dolphin u upgrade shop .... where developers could earn something for their effords if they upgrade their old dolphin modules to U version. 

my 2 cents. 

 
Unlikely. Considering they are actually thinking of charging us a fee to get them reviewed and listed. That fact alone may slow down development. For example, more than half the modules i sell are doing so poorly that i have not even made back the cost of the time i worked on them. Add another fee to that, and it will make me think twice about even doing some of them for DU.

I've been following this and right now all I can think of is another money maker for Boonex.

stick to v7 and make that a much better platform. You see this far to often that companies start with multiple things and that is the downfall of all products they sell. I remember something Andrew B said while back... stick to what you are good at and improve it. Instead of creating something else over and over again...

So Andrew, stick to making your current 7 version much beter and come with new improved features for it.

 RE

 I don't think two products is excessive.

 RE

 I don't think two products is excessive.