Dear Boonex: Groups are so yesterday

I've said it before, I'll say it again: 'Groups' is a really, really bad name for a module.

'Pages' would be so much better.  Not every entity in the world is a "Group".  What if I have a band, or a hotel, or a restaurant, or a nightclub, or a soccer team, or a baseball team, or a football team, or a professional organization?  I could, of course clone the 'Groups' module a few dozen times, renaming it to 'Hotels', "Motels', "Dog Houses', 'Hen Houses', 'Out Houses', 'Lizards', 'Gizards', and a few hundred other names that come to mind.   I could create a new cottage industry renaming the 'Groups' module into  all these things, and create a top menu from hell as a bonus.

How about you guys at Boonex give us a brand new module?  It should be easy for smart guys like yall.  Just clone the 'Groups' module, and call it 'Pages'.  Embellish it a bit, by allowing site administrators to create a 'Pages' Index.  The index being a set of categories defined in the admin section of the module.  Instead of dozens of group module clones, we have a single module, and all those unique names get transferred to the 'Pages Index'.  Of course, the pages index will be used in ways that should be obvious.  Go ahead and call it categories if you like... I won't mind.

I eager await your excuse NOT to do this.

That is a brilliant idea. It would make 'Pages' the module to work with. I have never really found a use for Groups as such.

Stuart

Very valid point HL.

I have been saying for ages that groups are not the way to go. I would have liked to change it to "communities" but I will be stuffed if i am forking out on yet another groups clone under a different guise. This module would be a huge bonus to dolphin if you guys could do this....

What are we waiting for????

NAthan

One MAJOR point that needs working on no matter if its groups or pages or whatever... is better integration of forums into the module.

After all, the module is supposed to be a mix of news, info and community for a select group of people.

regular forum integration is lacking in functionality and in accessibility at the moment making it necessary to upgrade the module just to get proper use from it.

Back to the thread point though, yes to rename it pages would be better.

Pages as a rename of Groups make no sense at all.  Now, having been a member of several social networks over the years, groups are used very much in social networking.  The whole idea behind groups is to have a grouping of members that focus on a certain topic.  For example, I enjoy gardening and I would be a member of a gardening groups where the topics are all centred around gardening.  Sometimes a group will be even more specialised and would centred around container gardening for those living in flats with limited gardening space.

I assume your "Band" example is not just for the band members but for those following the band.  In that case it is a group of members who have formed a group that is focused on a particular Band.

Or are you thinking of groups as a mini-CMS inside of Dolphin?  It really is not designed for that I would suggest a different application that is more suited for that purpose.

I do agree that the groups module needs improvement but renaming it to Pages is not an improvement in my opinion.  When I hear that I think of creating HTML pages in the Page Builder, not something that allows a group of people to come together and share ideas, opinions, tips, educate each other, etc, on a particular field of interest.

The name groups is used throughout the industry for the purpose the group module creates.  Why would naming it pages be making it better?

 RE:

 Somehow I knew that YOU just wouldn't  "Get it".   I'm not going to waste any of my time explaining this to someone that thinks they know everything.  Please go away.

For the rest of you that DO 'get it', there are several key modules in the market that greatly enhance the "Groups" module's functionality.  The first is AndrewP's 'Photo Albums for groups'.  Andrew also has "News for groups", and a "Group scheduler".  Anton has a "Groups page composer" that allows "Group(Oh how I hate that fckn name)" admins to place custom page blocks.

With all these additional features, just about any entity, can create a robust web presence on a Dolphin site.... a website within a web site.  This way, if you are someone like a solo musician, you can create a robust PAGE on a Dolphin site.  While we're at it, maybe we can call 'Fans' 'Likes'.  Some entities might not want to have "fans".... like is a better word.... very clever those folks at FB

I have always thought this would be a great idea especially your comment on 'a website within a website'. If a member of your site could create their own 'Page' and have all the functions such as the scheduler, news, photo albums, and it's own 'wall' (for examples) you could really give your members something to come back for. As stated earlier, it's like their very own website on your website. Heck, even give them the ability to theme it.

I suppose one could go through the hassle of cloning the groups module and renaming it all 5,000 locations (sarcasm) and then adding each one of these 3rd party modules stated by HL, but then you are screwed when it comes to updating Dolphin. Well then again, I suppose it could be a created as a separate module so it won't.

Yeah... they need to keep the existing groups module for compatibility.  That's why I suggested a new module.  It's a simple matter to clone it, and give it some sort of indexing capabilities.  That way people can still have their beloved groups module.  Before my one site disappeared into a black hole, I had all these enhancements made, and renamed the groups module(sort of).  It made so much more sense.  If a renamed module is officially available as a Boonex standard module, vendors like AndrewP are more likely to make their existing groups modules compatible with a new 'Pages' module.  That would not be the case, if a 'Pages' module was done by a third party.(This eliminates the Boonex excuse of  ("better done as a third party mod").

HL, I love you too.  No, I won't go away, you posted this in an open forum.  I don't understand what you want with your "Pages" module and since I don't understand, the only way would be for you to do a better outline of what you want the module to do because the current group module works for groups to communicate with each other.  You have not really outlined how you think a group module renamed "Pages" should function.

By the way, if you read what I write, I am the first one to say that I have a limited education on this stuff.

Well now, why didn't you just say so.  I hinted at this in my comment.  You want Dolphin to be like WordPress and Quam Plures and others out there that basically allows multiple sites to be set up within the framework.  Actually HL, and yes, I love you too, this is a good idea.  However, it would not replace the group module because the group module is for something entirely different than your idea.  This calls for an entirely new module to handle this.  Maybe Boonex will set up a development team just for this project; or maybe a team outside of Boonex could develop this as an independent module.

I would call it a "Sites" module; that is more indicative of what it does than "Pages".  Seriously, your idea is a good one and would really expand what Dolphin could be.  We would also want members to be able to register a domain that would point to their site; WordPress has this set up and they may simply be redirecting to a directory that contains the member's site, I am not sure how they handle domains for their members's sites.

 RE:

 No, it isn't....now run along and go bother someone else

Lot of good points hit here, I say take it a step further. 

Keep your idea for the ability of such a module to be used as 'Pages', but in the back end make it more versatile. Give me all of the features everyone listed above, then give me the ability to deploy multiple instances of this same module but with whatever name I want. 

Let this module be tuned per instance. Let me choose if I want this 'Page' to have forums, events, photos etc available to the end users. Make it robust.

Going this route is a little more 'bare metal' framework than what I suspect the vision for dolphin is/was. But could you imagine the possibilities for us site owners? You'd have a platform that you wouldn't have to pay a developer to finish for you.

All this is very interesting, HoustonLively, but I too am missing the point as to Groups. Where, specifically do your users see the word "Groups" on your site?

On my site, which coincidentally uses the word "Group" in the domain name, I don't have the word "Group" showing anywhere but in the Forum area, where I specifically named areas as Business Owner's Group, or Manager's Group. But, I chose those names, not Dolphin.

Thank you for your explanation.

Bill

I'm at a loss for words.  I'll let somebody else handle that last one.

 Bill "Groups" is one of the modules that comes with Dolphin...

Thanks.... I could not have handled that as gracefully

Well, yes, I think I understand what is being complained about. To me, Dolphin is very much like a filing cabinet, with drawers, full of file folders and those containing individual documents. The "Group" that you refer to is I assume your drawer in which you have your various 'Hotels', "Motels', "Dog Houses', 'Hen Houses', 'Out Houses', 'Lizards', 'Gizards', and a few hundred other names that come to your mind. You could simply relabel any of your 'drawers' with those names, without the need to rename the 'filing cabinet.'

I believe most people are far more intelligent that one might believe in navigating the myriad systems on the Internet. If one has a site where the members can't figure this out, then perhaps a more intelligent 'group' of members should be attracted.

There is always that one guy that wants everything to be just as he would like it, but doesn't want to build his own system. Systems such as Boonex are built for the masses and they are what they are to attract the largest 'group' of buyers and users. Just like all roads in the U.S. are built to drive on the right side. There is always that one person who believes that it would be so much better if he could drive on the left side of the road. And, that would simply be chaos.

I suppose that one could just move out to the countryside and buy a large enough piece of property to build their own roads on which everyone would drive on the left.

At the end of the day folks, I guess we all know this will not happen purely because of the damage it will cause to the development market..... No more would we be held to ransome by developers pumping out modules with different names that do pretty much the same things.

And you know Boonex... they love to look after the developers and stuff the rest of us (probably get a ban now for speaking my mind).

It is a shame though because it would add a real backbone to the product.

Nathan

 Is this exactly what one of our vendors do/have done...

Clubs, Bands, Schools, Teams, Pets and so on...

http://www.boonex.com/forums/?action=goto&my_threads=1#topic/Member-adding-pages-Is-there-s-mod-.htm

 RE:

 This from a guy that couldn't find the word "Groups" on his Dolphin site... Oh the irony.   Here's where you're wrong Bill.  Most people couldn't find their ass if it has a bell on it when it comes to navigating complex websites, and thank you for providing a sterling example.  However, the intelligence of the average  internet user has very little to do with this topic.  If that is something you would like to discuss, perhaps you should start a new topic of you own.

You can spew out all the cute little analogies you like, but you won't change the facts.  The fact is, 'Groups' is a poor name for a module that is capable of so much more than just a roosting place for GROUPS.  Facebook, and the Facebook culture has burned into the minds of countless millions, that a web presence is a PAGE.  Well, Facebook didn't really start calling a web presence a 'page'..... I believe that was Microsoft in the 90s.  When someone wants to know if someone else has a web presence, they don't ask. "Hey bud, do you have a web group?"  They are more likely to ask. "Do you have a web page?".  If you don't understand how changing a single word can alter someone's perception of something, then you should just ignore this thread. 

As a point of clarification to everyone else: I am NOT suggesting that Boonex replace the existing groups module, or change it in any way.  The existing groups module stays intact, and unaltered.

What I AM suggesting, is that Boonex CLONE the existing groups module, and call it 'pages'.  A brand new module.  This is a really simple thing to do.  I can do it myself in about 10 minutes.  So why don't I?  Because If I do it, it isn't a module that will be supported by third party vendors, and if it's an official part of Dolphin, those same vendors are more likely to offer compatible enhancements.  I am also suggesting that Boonex enhance it a bit to provide a way to index all those member pages, for ease of navigation through them all.

I mentioned a few mods that add some really good functionality to the groups module, and I am quite certain that those module vendors won't have much of a problem including a version of those modules that has been ported over to 'Pages'.  It would most likely result in stronger sales of their modules.

There are a few good suggestions as to further enhancements mentioned by others in this topic, but I believe for this to happen, feature requests should be held to a minimum.  Small steps folks...... after Boonex does this, then we can get demanding.

I've run this by Andrew Boon in the past, however, at the time I simply suggested renaming the existing groups module.  Andrew agreed that Pages would be a better name, but understandably it couldn't be done for reasons of compatibility with existing installations.  This alternative gives Dolphin site owners a choice without harming compatibility with existing installations.  It certainly won't do anything to hurt Dolphin sales, and it would likely help.

Dolphin site owners could then market their site as a place where members could create a robust web page with:

• A forum
• a news page (3rd party mod)
• photo albums (3rd party mod)
• music (Possibly a 3rd party mod for albums)
• videos (Possibly a 3rd party mod for videos)
• a schedule of events (3rd party mod)
• a blog (does not exist yet, but no reason it couldn't)

Yall get the idea.. or most of you anyway....... yes geek_girl, you can call it a mini cms within Dolphin if you like.  That's exactly what it becomes... a multi-user mini CMS platform, and how many other people have one of those on the market.  It is crystal clear to me, how such a simple thing can give Dolphin site admins the capability to move their sites in an entirely different direction, if they choose do do so.  Many of you already realize that simple things can make dramatic differences.  I hope Boonex does too.

Please this makes such sense that it is beyond attractive! It gives the end user so much more latitude without having to wonder how many people will join his group.  PAGES...PAGES...PAGES please make this a part of Dolphin!  The overwhelming attractiveness is categories on the fly or basically an open database just waiting for someone to come up with something to share. Which, now can be with so many in such a short period of time. 

 What CSampson said. This could be to Dolphin what Desktop publishing was to Apple.

 Yes and all of those mods have functionalities which you cannot get by simply cloning groups. For example Bands gives the possibility to post news, events, band albums etc.  Pets gives the ability to list adoption centers, Pet owners can post lost notices etc.

 I cannot vision how any developer can hold you to ransom by publishing modules. If you like a module you buy it, if you don't like it you ignore it. As a developer, I fully support the inclusion of a Pages module in Dolphin. It would make the product more robust, therefore attracting more users ... a win/win for all stakeholders. As for damaging the development market, there are tons of untouched ideas for mods that developers can tap into which does not have anything to do with the pages concept. If I should convert all the ideas I have now into modules it would take me ten+ years to complete them all :)

Ok, there will be no excuse to NOT do this. In fact, it's not just yet another little feature suggestion, but a very important direction of the software improvement, which we both recognise and already work on. You will see a lot of action happening in this area over the next year, since we want to make Dolphin more flexible in terms of creating hyper-focused sub-communities/groups/pages/brands/you-name it by members, not just by admins. I can be very specific now, but, again, we are working on it and it is one the major focus points for the next year.

http://www.boonex.com/m/Multi_Page_Creator

I have developed this module a long time ago. It's user driven not admin driven.

 RE:

 Do you have a point to make, or did you just see this topic as an opportunity to advertise?

Great idea and glad Boonex are taking notice!

Groups and Pages can be used in very different ways, also I agree that one will suit one purpose the other something else. 

To have both as default inclusions to Dolphin would be great.

I have to agree with diahlo about having both options .... 'Pages' might suit some people for different needs but it's the same case for 'groups' too. Both options would be better that having just one option!

 it won't be long and even 'Pages' will become old and outdated ....

 I am sure the same can be said for FaceBook and the Internet!! Ha Ha

 Your right :) BUT they are still very popular and this is my point about 'groups' .... To some it may seem old stuff and to others not so old ...

I still agree both options 'groups' and 'pages' will allow users to make decision on what suits them and their communities etc

Indeed I think the title of the post is throwing the idea off course.  I too think the groups are a valuable addition to Dolphin as does HL.  I don't think anyone wants groups to go away either.  However, I think pages is as you can see a welcomed addition to this platform for which I am very grateful indeed.

Are you guys trying to duplicate FB again, I mean they did the Groups to Pages two years ago.

 Yea of such little imagination indeed

Let's just not take the Microsoft route with the name.  We can create pages now, it is the back end, create new page.  You will not believe how often I have to go through the confusion with "internet explorer" and "windows explorer" with clients.  To call the  new feature "Pages" does not make any sense, we are not going to be creating pages, but another instance of a Dolphin site within a Dolphin site.  Call it "Mini Me" but seriously, choose a name that will aid in avoiding confusion by the users.

Dolphin is never good enough, please include this and that.

"Sure we might put that in 8;" so we wait another year or two on new features, dealing with buggy software because the next best thing is being included, distributed and bugged, therefore making it difficult to take a site live, showing to future clients.

No wonder there never really is a stable release.

 HL is quite right about this you just don't get it all.  I have no idea why you think pages is confusing and of course we all know about the add a page but your limited imagination thinks that only an admin can bring something to the table.  Are you going to give your admin privileges to people so they can make pages?  Please, I have of 1.4 million pages with Google now on my site what do you think is confusing?  It is quite clear that your mind is closed to the concept of a different path.  

 It's a good thing Dolphin does not agree with you on this one...

 I agree!

Yes, Facebook has BOTH 'pages, and 'groups', and they didn't invent either.  I'll give credit to Yahoo for popularizing 'Groups', and FB gets credit for the surge in 'Pages'.  We all know what a group is, so we don't need any more reminders.  The fact is, these days, all those 'groups' are more likely to create a 'page' on FB, than a group on FB or on Yahoo.  How often have you seen or heard someone say "See our group on Facebook"?  

I have no idea why there is even talk in this topic about the fact that we need both pages and groups.  Where did I ever suggest to replace the groups module?  I am only suggesting that the 'Pages' concept be made a permanent part of Dolphin's core functionality.  There is no brilliant concept here... Just a simple change to alter how existing resources are publicly perceived.

I'm glad to hear Boonex is in the same boat... Or I think so.  Andrew's post is a little vague, and leaves everything to the imagination.   Nothing has to be reinvented here.  The functionality already exists.  We don't have to wait 6 months for this to happen.

I was just kidding anyways.. trying to drum up more conversations.

I like your idea.. 

I have a question though.

you have your site, someone may ask, do you have a page on boonex.com?

Yes, boonex.com/newton27 would this not be similar?

What would be special about it? Adding your own content blocks and apps?

 RE:

 Yes.....not much difference at all.  The big difference is a matter of perception between the word 'Profile' and the word 'Page'.  A social networking 'Profile' is perceived as an aggregate of personal information that you share with friends.  A 'Page' is perceived as a more professional or business web presence.  For instance, your Beetle site: The pages concept would be a good place for businesses that specialize in custom painting Beetles, or businesses that specialize in hard to find beetle parts, etc.  The 'Pages' concept sends the message that we are here, and we are here for everybody.  A 'Profile' is perceived differently, as a more private aggregate of information.  While there are a lot of technical parallels, the two are perceived very differently.

 Damn, something just hit me in the head! lol

That is a great analogy of this now, I totally get it.

 Welcome to the party PAL! 

 You can see here http://modloaded.net/dolphin709/m/pages/home/, that there are categories with sub-categories, each sub-categories can have different fields  therefore extending the form to suit the page you like, either it's for business, public figure, products, etc...

Let me know what sub-category you want and the fields that's in it, and I will define it for you using this module.